What Makes a Great Leader?

Being a leader is more than having authority, it’s about inspiring and guiding others to reach their full potential. Today on Rock Stars, we dive into the qualities of a great leader, exploring the impact that strong leadership can have in sports, business, and life. We share our personal leadership experiences, the challenges we've faced, and the insights we've gained along the way. Whether you're leading a team, a business, or a family, we believe that it’s crucial to understand the power of influence and the responsibility that comes with it.

Here’s what we get into today: 

• Why leadership starts with creating an environment where trust and collaboration thrive
• Inspiration over authority and the importance of earning trust through consistent action and respect
• The role leaders play in setting the standard for accountability and creating a culture of learning
• The importance of elevating those around you through purposeful action and how this empowers team members to shine and grow 

Whatever role you’re in, we hope this episode inspires you to step up as a leader that embodies clarity and integrity. If you enjoyed today’s episode, subscribe to the podcast for more empowering conversations. We’d also love to hear your thoughts on leadership. Leave us a comment and connect with us on social media to keep the conversation going. 

Instagram: @Rockstarscurl // Jennifer: @‌jjonescurl // Brent: @‌brent.laing.99
Facebook: Jennifer Jones // Official Team Jennifer Jones
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Youtube: @‌RockStarsJonesLaing
LinkedIn: Brent Laing LinkedIn

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Rockstars, the podcast where high performance meets real life.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

I'm Brent Lang, joined by my wife, Jennifer Jones, and this is where we talk about rocks, rings, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

It's about chasing dreams and asking, why not me?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

And figuring out how to keep going when things get hard or hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Sometimes it's just us talking curling, business, family, and parenting.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Sometimes it's bigger conversations about success, pressure, and believing that anything is possible.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

We keep it honest, uplifting, and fun.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

We might even make you laugh.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Because this is about the wins, the losses, and real life in between. Rocks, rings, real life.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

This is Rockstars.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Welcome back to Rockstars. Rocks, Rings, and Real Life, the podcast where a couple of dream chasers open up about chasing big goals, living in the moment, navigating life's highs and lows, and figuring out what comes next together. I'm Olympic champion Jennifer Jones, and as always, I'm joined by my husband and Olympian Brent Lang. Brent, what are we diving into on today's episode?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Today we're going to talk about something that is important in sports. I think it's important in business. It's important with family. I think it's just important in life, really in everything we do. We're going to talk about leadership. And to me, you can't really talk about leadership without talking about culture.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah, and leadership's such a big topic. It's it relates to so many different things that we deal with every day. So I don't know if it's going to be a one episode, one podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

How would you know until we go?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

So we'll probably talk about it a little bit more, but we thought we'd get uh get started and just give some initial thoughts. And it's definitely one of my favorite topics and one that I talk a lot about at corporate speaking events. I focus on it, often asked it to be a part of a keynote. So I'm really excited for this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Good to hear. Me too. So but before we jump in, quick shout out to our listeners. If you're loving the show, hit that subscribe button on YouTube, leave us a review, follow us on our socials at Rockstars Curl on Insta and X, at BLang99 on X, and at J. Jones Curl on Insta. You'd really be doing us a solid if you'd do that for us. So okay, let's start with a question, Jen. What is leadership? Like what does that word mean to you? I think you're pretty well known as one of the best leaders of all time in curling and in business. And like you said, you'd speak a lot about it. So to you, what does what does the word leadership mean?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I think leadership means to inspire. Try to inspire the the team of people that you're working with that are around you, whether that's your family, whether that's your colleagues, whether that's your curling team, your baseball team, your hockey team. Leadership means to inspire, in in my in my view. And I always say that people will ask what your style of leadership is, but I think for me it's just trying to inspire, trying to really respect what the differences are and the people that are around you, try to bring out the best in them, support them, always have their back and just be there for them so that everybody around us can achieve greatness.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I I went uh, you know, I knew we were gonna be asking ourselves these questions, so I cheated. I went to Google.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

I didn't cheat.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

No, I know.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

I never cheat. I I am a rule follower. I know it.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

So I get excited.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yeah, I get a little stressed when we don't follow the rules.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

It's true. Yeah, that's true. Maybe that's another topic for another day. But if you Google leadership, it's uh it's the art of motivating, influencing, and guiding individuals or teams to achieve a shared vision or goal. It's a social process focusing on empowerment and collaboration rather than mere authority. Said simply, leadership is the ability to influence others toward a shared goal while earning their trust along the way.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

In other words, inspire.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, no, I that's what I said. I agreed with you. I already knew the answer, and I agreed with you. And I love the the the last part there, earning their trust along the way. I don't know anybody who's been successful in a leadership role or known as, you know, a kind of a guru of leadership that hasn't earned the trust of whomever they're working with. And it's not a lead and follow thing necessarily with leadership, but I think that's a big one. So let's let's break that down a little bit, Jen. Let's talk, talk to me about guiding or direction when it comes to to leadership. How do you kind of, yeah, how do you pick the direction and and how do you guide that team or that business group or whatever your your family, you know, whatever you're doing, how do you how does it happen?

SPEAKER_01 4:33

I think a leader provides clarity, not just what you do, but why, why it matters. And you know, I'll use our kids for example when we're trying to lead them. We talk about when you make a commitment, you stick with that commitment and you follow it through because you're a part of a team. And so we always tell them why. Why do we always have to stick with commitment? Because people are relying on us and it provides that clarity. And so, I mean, our kids love their activities and they do them all the time because they love it and that's why they do it, but it's also because we've also made a commitment.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, and it I think it's uh one of the old some of the the old traditions or the old ways of of life, you know, be a man, be a person of your word. If you say you're gonna do something, you have to do it, otherwise, people are never gonna believe you when they when you tell them things. And I I think that seems pretty common sense, but it's easier said than done. I realize that, but I think that's super important. If you're gonna be in a leadership role, you want people to believe in you, you want people to trust you. Go back to the trust. If they can't trust what you're saying, if they can't trust that you're gonna do your part and you're gonna do what you said you were gonna do and you know lead in that direction, then you're gonna lose that, you know, that group or that that team or that husband very quickly. Don't lie to me.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Right? But uh terrible I, you know that no, I have learned that. Um, but how about influence? What are the best ways to influence people or put another way? Why should or why would anybody want to follow you?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

That's a good question. That's one that I I don't wrestle with it every day. That's just kind of a saying. But at at work, I mean, in our business, at Weed Man, Mosquito Hero, people don't listen or, you know, follow is a weird word, but people don't listen or follow me just because I'm their boss. That's not enough in today's world. And that might be a little bit old school where it's like, you know, do as I say, not as I do, the old parenting. And it's like, that's not really how people work. That's not how human nature works. If you want somebody to do something and to believe in you and and you know, follow you down a road, then you better be willing to do it, I think. You know, and same goes for your curling team. They don't just follow you because you're the skip, which leads me to kind of an aside question I wanted to ask you. And does it have to be, I mean, curling is always going to be central to our podcast in our life. Uh, does it have to be the skip that is the leader on the team? I know in your case, and with your skill set, and you developed into that, and maybe it's a two-part question. Does it have to be the skip? And was it natural for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

No, I don't think it has to be the skip. I do think having it as a skip makes it an easier kind of functionality as a team, just because the skip's on their own, they're making decisions on strategy, they're the ones that are throwing the last rock. They need to really inspire confidence, I think, in the rest of the team. And that's easier, in my opinion, to do from a leadership role. But that's something that I learned. I never really truly wanted to be the leader because I didn't want to ever boss anybody around. I like everybody to feel good, to make sure everybody's happy. I get stressed when people aren't happy, and I just never wanted to be the boss. And then it was through actually talking to our sports psychologist Cal Botterall, he says, just because you're the leader doesn't necessarily mean that you're the boss. Like you can lead in other ways. And and so I think when people ask me what my style of leadership was, or I don't know if it's a style, but like you've kind of related to it already. Just do what you say you're gonna do, inspire, create trust, and just always have their back and uplift them. And and I would, I think, and I think my teams would agree that I was the one who would think outside the box, come up with a plan, and always try to, you know, do what I say I was gonna do, work as hard as everybody else, and just kind of lead by example.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

And I know those are kind of cliche words, but if I remember when I hurt myself and I hurt my knee, my team never once questioned whether I'd come back because I you'd already proven to them that you could be trusted and you could be counted on, and that if it was possible, you would come through.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Exactly. And and I did what I said I was gonna do always. So when I said I was gonna work hard and I was gonna do these things, there was never any question. I've been in situations where there's been a leader that, you know, makes promises all the time to everybody, maybe even the same promise to everybody that that is in that situation, and then many people are let down because Well, you can't keep your promise to everybody. You can't keep your promise. And and then all of a sudden you just kind of lose your word. Like your word and it means so much. It's like integrity, just the fact that people can trust what you say you're gonna do, it it I think it it's so powerful. And the moment you lose that is really hard to get it back. And so I've always tried to, if I say I'm gonna get something done, I get it done. And whether that's in law, whether that's in curling, whether that's as a wife, as a mom, if I make a promise. And even riding home tonight, Skyla said to me, uh, we were just talking about something. I said, Don't worry, honey, like we'll we'll figure it out. And she goes, I know, mom, we always figure it out. I know that you'll always help me figure it out. So I've, you know, you instill that trust in them then where they feel like they can come to you with a problem because we'll solve it together. And that to me is what a leader should do.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah, and I think that's it goes back to culture in our family. That's the that's the expectation, that's the standard, that things can get hard and things can get overwhelming and things can get confusing. But at the end of the day, we always figure it out, and it's not always perfect, but they know I think the kids feel safe enough to know that hey, yeah, I'm stressed right now, but we've been here before. Like we ask a lot of them and we we fit in a lot in our lives, and sometimes it's hectic, but I think that's a pretty good lesson um, you know, for them to to understand. And again, you don't let them down. It's not like you promise to be somewhere and then don't show up.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, and and I do believe that anybody can be a leader. I I wasn't something that was natural, I was a shy introvert person. You you think of as a leader as somebody that's gonna, you know, I don't know, not be shy, like be extroverted and outgoing.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Boisterous, loud, yeah, yeah, motivational, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, but you can have different styles, and I learned to become the person I needed to become in different situations in order to inspire my team. It wasn't natural for me, but I learned how to become the leader that I needed to be in order for the teams that I were was a part of, and whether that's in business or curling or wherever, in order for us to be successful.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, and don't you think that just gave you even more credibility with your team because they knew you well enough to know that's not a natural thing for you? And having those, you talk about Cal Botterell a lot, and he asked a lot of you, and he said, I know, you know, I I'm gonna paraphrase and I've heard lots of stories, but he asked you to become the leader in a in a place where you were like, No, I just want to kind of do my thing, and yeah, I'll lead by example and I'll play well and I'll work hard and all those other things. And I think Cal kind of challenged you to say, in this situation on this team, that's not enough.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah, it's not good enough. And you need you need to inspire, you need to look at them, you need to look at your team in the eyes, you need to show them confidence, you need to kind of create the path. And it wasn't natural for me, but he did. He pushed me outside my comfort zone and he made me realize uh that you know, even if it's not natural for you, you can you can do it.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

And it's that's a learned it's a learned skill. Some people naturally are, I think, leaders, but you know, a lot of it's learned along the way, and people are thrust into those roles, whether they like it or not, because maybe you're the best player on the team, and and sometimes they they demand you to be the leader, and that doesn't always work because it's not in your makeup, but it it can be learned. I would agree with you on that. But ultimately, leadership is influence. Is that is that not true? Kind of back to that idea, and an influence on people comes from creating buy-in into what you know, what you believe and the visit that your vision that you're painting for your team or your family, your business, whatever it happens to be, because people will follow you if they trust you, if they trust your judgment, they respect your consistency to whatever it is that that goal or that vision is. You know, I talk sometimes about you know, what's the North Star? I had a good conversation today with an old buddy, a childhood friend, and he stopped in and we're we're getting older. We both agreed on that.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

I don't like that, but yes, we are.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

And uh he's talking about we, you know, what's the end goal? And he had listened to a podcast and he said, freedom of time. I he said, I loved when you said that. And I said, Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

He's like, So how does it listen to our podcast, not a podcast?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

No, our podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he he said, So, okay, so how do we get there? And it's like, well, the only way that I see getting to where I want to go is we have to own a business. And he agrees, and he owns a bit a couple businesses as well. And so we got to to kind of talking about that. But the vision, and and I think I used the term today with Kevin saying, you know, our North Star is freedom of time, and that is a number, it's a net worth, it's a you know, an income without requiring all of our time that we have to get to uh to really you know reach the goals that we're trying to get to. And and so every day you make decisions based on that. And you know, there's a good book, Will It Make the Boat Go Faster? And I've talked about that before, British rowing team, and every every day they ask themselves the question whether if there's a decision to be made, will it make the boat go faster? If the answer is no, I'm not gonna do it. If the answer is yes, then I have to do it. And it can be something that's simple. And if only I had that kind of discipline, I'm not saying I do, but but yeah, if if you're doing things that you say you're gonna do to achieve the goal that you've set out as your North Star, as your vision, and people see you doing that on your team and are on the same path, you know, and you can show them that you genuinely care about not just the goal, but them as people as well, I think that's gonna go a long way. And you know, part of that, I think part of leadership is accountability. I think we've said that. A lot of the the terms we're gonna talk about today and the things we're gonna say, they're almost saying the same thing in different ways, right? So is accountability a part of leadership?

SPEAKER_01 14:25

1000%. Uh definitely. I think accountability is a part of everything in life. If you really want to have credibility with anybody, is that you have to be accountable to yourself and to your teammates and to the people around you. And leaders will always set the standard for that. The idea of what is acceptable, what is not within the team culture. If something goes wrong, a true leader will own it. They don't deflect, they admit they made a mistake. We all make mistakes, and that's what I often talk about when I'm speaking at a keynote or where wherever I may be, is that we're not perfect.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

We're not? No, I'm not. You're not?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Well, I know you think I am, but no.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

It's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

We're not perfect. We all make mistakes, but it's a question of what you do with that mistake. And we like to call them learnings. I know a lot of people use that that phrase, but it's about and and when you're a leader, you have to own it. Just admit this was wrong, or I made a mistake, I went down the wrong path. But let's pivot. Let's try to figure out how we can make this better. Don't deflect, and that will build credibility.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

I don't think anything builds credibility faster than you taking responsibility for something that may or may not even have been your fault.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

But if if if it's because you're a team.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah. I'm gonna take this one. I could have done better, and it might be a very small piece of it. But if all we ever, and and there's a great book about this, Extreme Ownership, Jocko Willink, I think is how you say his name. He's a Navy SEAL, an American dude, and I've watched his videos, I use it in some of the coachings over the last few years, and basically what he's saying, it's it's like I said, it's called extreme ownership. Basically, the idea that everything is my responsibility. Not that I necessarily caused everything that goes wrong, but I own it all. You know, when something goes wrong, I own it. If my team fails, I own it, if communication breaks down, I own it. The best part about taking responsibility for things in your life like that is that you you have some control, right? I can if if it's my issue, if if if I own that challenge, then I can fix it. And if I always ask myself, okay, what happened here? Like an example at work, and I'm in the middle of training a couple guys to take on leadership roles, and I'm not saying I know it all, but I they're learning some lessons. And one of them is when your team, who you're responsible for their skills and their performance, when they don't perform well, it's not, well, I told them to do it. No, it's it's oh, I've I've not trained them well enough yet. And it's a very small, I think, shift in your mindset, but it's everything. If and that's what I'm trying to get them to come to on their own. That's the other thing is I I could tell them what to do, I could show them what to do, I could do it, but that's that's not gonna help them long term. It's not gonna help us get where we want to go long term. We want these people to be able to operate without us. So the idea of if I'm a team leader at a job and my team makes a mistake, it might be their fault. But me fixing the blame doesn't help anybody. I need to go back and say, did I follow up with them? Did I give them the right training? Did I do the daily checks? Did I make sure that our standards were clear? And then again, go through the exact same steps over and over again. And it's not good enough to say I told them. And then eventually, you know, maybe people don't fit, but that was an interesting one today because we're we're making a a bunch of little kind of standardized changes at work and some systems. And I've asked a couple of the guys to implement them. And I mean, it was day one yesterday, and I go out and I'm like, and I was just looking, I was like, How'd this go? How'd this go? Oh, I told them that it didn't happen, I told them that it didn't happen. And so we had the conversation, and it's like that's that's the idea to me. That's what that book, Extreme Ownership Means. And if all I ever worry about is that I take responsibility and I have impact and I can make a change, then that's empowering. I think that's a good thing rather than feeling helpless, right? The other thing Kevin said to me today is like there's a lot of external things that go on that are I know I can't change them, but man, is it difficult to deal with? And there's really only one thing to do. He had a bit of a staffing issue, and he said, I'm just treating that person even better now that they're leaving me and hanging me out to dry. And I was like, that's a there's no other way to do it. There's no other upside. What's the upside of doing doing anything else? But just kind of taking responsibility. And I he didn't say, Hey, I wonder why she's leaving, it's my fault. But that's how how I try and think about it at work when I lose a good person. So, and and that I think if you describe that, I mean Jock O'Willink, if you've watched any of his videos, that's that's a guy I'd follow. That's a guy I'd want to, you know, not really go into battle. I know he has, but you know, kind of in a not a war kind of way, but follow him anywhere because of that attitude that he's always gonna take responsibility, he's always gonna worry about what he can do better to make me better. And I think that's that's leadership in a nutshell. I know I went off on a tangent. Did I lose you? I lost myself there for a minute.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

You didn't lose me, no.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

And that leads to kind of the next question because I think I think I know the answer. But does leadership involve elevating others?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

For sure it does. I mean, we all want to be around people that are joyful and happy and doing their very best. And I I do believe that the best leaders are able to encourage courage and allow the people around them to shine and to grow. I always said on my curling team, I was I was my I wanted to be the biggest cheerleader for my teammates. I wanted them to succeed more than I even wanted myself to succeed. I mean, we were part of a team, so we kind of shared joint success.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

When they succeeded, your job got easier.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

But in yeah, but in terms of their shots and everything, like I wanted them to shine and to sparkle and to do all of those things. So it was my job to ensure that that happened. And when I'm talking about the curling ice, it was about giving shots in certain circumstances to ensure that they were makeable. Like some ice didn't allow shots to be made, or maybe one person was struggling with a certain shot that game. So why would I keep giving it to them over and over and over again when the chance of success was low? So then you pivot and you make maybe call a different shot because I want them to shine. You also want to give give your team and your the people around you responsibilities. You want to allow them to grow and and feel proud of themselves. And there's nothing like, and I I think most parents would would say the same thing, when you see your child grow and gain independence and be so proud of their accomplishments and what they did. Like just be so proud of themselves that they're on top of things or that they were able to do something all by themselves. Well, and that's that's part of being a leader is to encourage and to to see the people around you take those steps um kind of towards even greater success, towards their dreams. And if everybody gets better because of you, if you are able to get the absolute best out of the people on your team, then you're a true leader. If the opposite is true, well then I think you really have to think about what that means. Are you not doing something that inspires? Are you not appreciating the differences of your teammates? And maybe each teammate requires different things from you, and that you have to be perceptive. You have to look and see what the individual needs are of that teammate in order to be successful, or of that colleague, or of that child, or of that spouse. We all need different things. Like you and I aren't exactly the same.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

We're not?

SPEAKER_01 21:45

No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

No, we're not. I need everything. I need I need a lot of support. I think you touched on an important part there. And as a skip and as a curling team, I mean if somebody's struggling with a certain shot, yeah, you want to switch that. Don't keep giving them the same shot and expect a different result. Because confidence is You know, it comes from success from little things. And you talk about, you know, at World Financial Group, a company I've been involved in with a number of years, it's EPR Exchange era exchange. Encourage, praise, and recognize. And, you know, when things go well, you want to point those out because you want to build momentum in your team. And, you know, if if there are things that you can recognize, I think that goes a long way. And again, that shows some maturity and some signs of a leader that's trying to get the best out of their out of their team. If you just keep telling people they're doing things wrong and you keep putting them back out there, do it wrong till you get it right. Well, that's not really how the the human psyche works. I mean, maybe in rare cases. And I've seen it in curling where I swear there's been skips over the years like that have called shots in spite of somebody struggling with it. Just like you should be able to make this. And that yes, this is our standard as a team, and this is unacceptable. But in the middle of a game, maybe that's this isn't the time to prove a point, Kevin, Martin. Or even I saw Gushu, I swear he did it sometimes to his guys too.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

And I'm so oblivious to that.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

I didn't even I well and I could be totally making that up. But it I mean, those are two of the guys that had the highest standards, you know, legendary players and really known for how hard they worked and everything else, and expectations on their team were huge. But in the heat of the battle, I don't think proving a point helps.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

No, and it's a it's can you take that back to training or you take that back as a learning to figure out going forward? But in the in the middle of a moment, in the middle of a big presentation, if somebody's struggling, help them out, whatever it may be, in order to have them achieve success and then talk about it after and say, okay, what can we do different? What can we do different to ensure that we achieve results?

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah. And I think one of the biggest things that sets really effective leaders and leaderships, not styles, more skills, uh, from those who are, you know, maybe just okay, is decision making under pressure, especially. You know, we come from a sporting background where every now and again there's a shot where somebody has to decide. I mean, your shot making under pressure, I mean, the skip has more of that on them than anybody else. But every now and again there's a decision where nobody's really quite sure, and somebody has to step up and be the one to put their neck out there and say, this is what we should do. And even when you know, you know, that's I think it's a good skill in curling sometimes, where you kind of sense that nobody really wants to take charge here. So even if you're not sure, that might be your role on the team. And some of the teams I was on, I I felt like that was my role just to add that I'm not in charge out here, but hey, when it when there's a moment where we're not sure, I felt like the more sure I was talking about it. And Glenn actually mentioned this to me one time and said how much he he liked that and was like, okay, good, I'm doing something right. And but yeah, decision making under pressure. Um, that's that's the sign of somebody like anybody can be, you can pretend you're a great leader when everything's clicking, you're winning all the games, or you know, the the cut the customers are running through the door because you've got a product, right time, right place. Maybe you made I don't know, you made masks before COVID hit. And it's like you're not a great, not necessarily a great leader. That wasn't what led to that success. But when things are tough, when you have to pivot, when you have to make changes or have to make tough decisions, I think that's when the the cream rises to the crop.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

For the top and I actually always felt like decisions are easier for me under pressure.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

I think Wow, you're gonna have to tell me why that is.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

I know you're gonna I yeah, I think when when there was a time crunch, which is another reason why I think we need less time in curling because we take too long on some of these decisions, but that's just curling. But when there's when you had to really make a decision, whether it was negotiating a legal document, whether it was making a shot at the Olympics, whether when you had to make that decision, I felt I had so much clarity. It just seemed very clear. You couldn't him and haw, you couldn't think about the pros and cons. You just had to decide. And people would say go with your gut. I've never really been a go with your gut kind of person. It's just you just know, right? You just kind of I guess it's a feeling, maybe that's your gut, but you just had to, you just had to decide. Whereas I think when I don't have time pressure and I don't, then I'm too factual. I look at too many of the pros and cons. I try to weigh out too many things, I try to strive for perfection, and then I'm a little bit slower on making a decision because I'm trying to make it too perfect, because I have the ability to, I have the time, I have the flexibility. So I'm better to make that clear decision when I'm on a time crunch and there's pressure on.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Is is there a lesson in here for me? Like, is this a is this a tip?

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Like I should I I was thinking about that. No, I don't think it's a tip.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Oh, it's the opposite of that. It's like, don't do this.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

No, I don't know. I was just uh it wasn't meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

I thought I was learning something, like, oh, it wasn't for me. I see that's my problem. I think everything's meant for me.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah, it wasn't about you. No, it was just I just find it because you'll you'll even like when I'm booking flights, I'm like, oh, but what are we gonna do? Like when do we want to land? Like I try to make it perfect and what hotel room we are, and where do we want to be in that hotel to make it like the best?

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, that's accurate.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Yeah, right. But if I'm going to make a shot to win the Olympics, I can decide in like two and a half seconds and throw with clarity.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah, maybe we should find a way to get a little bit more of that into every day. See, that's what I'm saying. That's what I think the lesson is here. And I'm I'm gonna take extreme ownership and see how I can help you with that by by doing something differently myself. But I think, you know, promises made, promises kept. You've heard that. I I think if you want to be somebody who someone has who people have faith in, who people want to, you know, follow you down the that road, whatever it is, no matter how difficult it is, you you have to have that trust. And I think we've beat that to to death. And you've got to have that North Star. Make a plan to achieve the goal, surround yourself with the right people. It comes down to the right people to execute the plan and then execute on your responsibilities and see how you can help other people be better. I think that's fun, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 27:58

It is so fun. And one other note on that is I don't think you should always surround yourself with people who are like you. I mean, I c I kind of like myself.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

No, I think that's but I think you want to almost do the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

That's what I mean. That's what I was gonna say is that try to surround yourself with people who bring a different perspective so that you don't lose out on those little nuances that you may otherwise lose out on if everybody just agrees with you. And I again, when you're a leader and your whole team just agrees with you all the time over and over again, you have a problem because you want their their perspective, you want that feedback, you want to know what they're thinking so that you can make the best decision. And that doesn't mean you want to be around a bunch of yes people. It might make you feel like you're doing a great job, but I think in in if you have perspective, you'd realize maybe not necessarily the case.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah, and maybe I'm pessimistic, but if I'm in a room and every every idea I have, everybody's like, yeah, yeah, that's great. I'm like, okay, what's going on here? Where's the hidden?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

So you like it when I challenge your ideas.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

That was not what I said at all. I expect it though. Yeah, but and I think long term it's good. I don't like it when you challenge all like certain ones. Some of them are good. Yeah, but you were talking, you were looking for a word earlier. Charisma, I think, is is what a lot of people look at somebody who's charismatic and can hold a room, and you know, when they walk in, everybody looks, and and that's a great skill. And I think that one's a little bit natural. It can also be learned, and but follow-through builds trust more than charisma. Follow through wins every time, I think. Would that be would that be accurate? You can have all the charisma in the world, but if you can't make people believe in you and trust in you, and the only way to do that is to do what you say you're gonna do over and over again, that's that's how you build that that trust is through the follow-through.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yeah, charisma will get you in the door, but it doesn't close the deal. And so you you need that follow-through for for sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

We're obviously involved in curling and talking about curling coaches and things from time to time. And it helps if you've been there done that, right? Like we talk about leading from the front, or if you've you know, if you're giving advice to somebody in curling on how to get from juniors to through university into the ladies' game, you've been there and done that. And yeah, it wasn't last year, but does that add credibility? Can you have that credibility without experience? If you're gonna lead a group, can you lead a group to do something you've never done before?

SPEAKER_01 30:15

I think you can, but I think it's a lot more challenging, and I think it's harder to get buy-in. It's much easier to get buy-in when you you've been there, you've done that, you've shown, you've proven yourself. But I don't I don't believe that anything is impossible. I don't think it's impossible to lead a team to something that you have never done yourself, but it sure is a lot easier to build that trust uh and to have that credibility if you've done it before.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Yeah, and obviously I was I knew the answer to that question. I mean, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, they're leading people to do things that nobody's ever done. So it's it's possible. It's possible. Dreamers, yeah. Big dreamers, yeah, out outside of mine. But uh another thing I don't think we've touched on is I think great leaders trust their people. You know, it's part of the role of, especially in business, you own a business and you, you know, just because you own the business doesn't make you a leader, that's for sure. But you have to be able to trust your people. If you are able to, and we're trying to with our businesses, like I've said, we're trying to delegate's not the right word, but we're trying to build people into leadership roles and and this teach them the skill set so that we're not really required on a day-to-day basis. We have other things going on, and it's that freedom of time. So if you give somebody a responsibility and you train them and give them the skills they need to make the decisions, is it fair to say you have to let them make those decisions? You can't swoop in at the last moment and say, Thanks for putting your heart and soul into this and doing exactly what I asked you to do and trained you to do, but we're not gonna do that. How would that make you feel?

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Not great.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

That's how I feel too. I would not like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Probably fairly defeated. And it's like, well, what's the point? Why did I put all this work into it? I was so proud of it. It's it almost becomes your baby when you're working on this project that you have so much pride in, and then all of a sudden it's t take torn apart. And and whether so if you are that type of leader who wants to know what's going on and have a little bit more input, then there has to be regular check-ins to make sure that you're on the right track and you're not just gonna swoop in and change it last minute and and really crush somebody's confidence.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Yeah, I don't think you can crush a culture faster than than that. I mean, you you surround yourself with good people, you bring them in for a reason, um, you know, and you train them up and you give them those responsibilities, and then yeah, you swoop in and say, that's not how we're doing it anymore. And actually, Jen, it's not your call anymore. I'm gonna just make that call. And that's something that uh, you know, can happen in business. I think it happens all the time in business, and it's something that I I'm not saying I never do it. I caught myself doing it today at work, that's why I brought it up. But you know, it's it's better to kind of let them make that.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

I do that with laundry.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Oh Christ.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

I do.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Well, how I'm not allowed to do laundry. We've been through this.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Well, because you once did it and it ruined a few things, so now I like I've never ruined anything.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Well, the one laundry accident I had years ago is I ironed a golf shirt that was one of those like wicking fabrics. Yeah, they melt.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Like real quick. Thankfully, it was low enough that and that was the shirts were long enough I could just tuck it in because it was our uniform at work. Like we got these, I think it was Dunning golf shirts, and I I melted mine. It was not my brightest. You're ironing.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Step in the right direction. So anyway, sidetrack.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Ever since? I don't I don't iron anymore. But uh anyway, no, I I think I think a lot of this is common sense. I mean, but common sense isn't that that common, right? Like we're talking about micromanaging versus macromanaging, right? Where are you and and there's nothing wrong with being involved as a leader and being in there, but I hope you're in there as a cheerleader and as check-ins and for updates and and not in there just constantly saying, yeah, no, not that way, this way, and then not that way, this way, like that, that kind of thing. Because culture beats talent every single time.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Well, it just you get the best out of your people. There's I've we've seen lots of teams that have been super talented, and some of them get it done, but there's been other teams that it's like, how do they get it done? It's like because of how well they function, then every now and again there's like a team Mallet that has both.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Well, when you look at Rockley, T Typhoon, Curling Club, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:21

They got the most out of their parts.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Yeah, and it was their culture, the joy, the smiles. You could just see the infectious gratitude out on the ice, and they played very well. They they played as well as they could play, I thought I thought. They they really brought it every single time, and so culture beats talent. Every single team out there was very talented, the best players in the world, and uh they had great culture.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

I would agree.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

And I think that's a great way to end. I mean, obviously, we're gonna have some different segues into leadership. It's something that I know both of us talk a lot about in corporate environments, and it relates to so many things in life. So we're gonna bring it up often. If you have questions, please feel free to ask because we think it's it's an important part of life.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Oh, for sure it is. For sure it is. So we do have some rock star rapid fire questions.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

I've got one for you.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Oh, yeah? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Apparently, somebody asked, and this is kind of one of why one of the reasons why we're doing this podcast. What makes Jennifer such a great leader in her curling career?

SPEAKER_00 35:17

This this one was asked by at J. Jones Curl. Is that where it came from?

SPEAKER_01 35:21

No, it wasn't me who asked it.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

What makes Jennifer such a great leader in her curling career? Well, I think it's a number of things, but I think at the forefront, and we've already kind of talked about it, was you were always looking for ways to get better and and you were always leading that charge. And I can say this, you can't, you you could say this, and nobody would call you crazy. You were always the best player on your team, but you were always the one looking to get better the most often. Like you were always looking, how do we get better? How do I get better? And if your best player is doing that, again, that's just somebody you want to run through a wall for. So I think that's what what did it. And it didn't hurt that the bigger the moment, the better you got. And that's just that that's trust. I know that I've you know, how many times did Don say to you, there's nobody else I'd rather throw last rock than you? And uh, so that's uh, you know, that's a pretty good feeling. So I think that's that's where it comes from.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

No problem. Yeah. Do you want me to tweet that out too? Make sure everybody sees it? Okay. Okay. All right, I got one for you. What is, I know we've established you've been a great leader in curling and in business and in life. What is one leadership quality you wish you had developed or adopted sooner? That's a tough one.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

I don't even know the answer to this one. That that is a very uh tough question. One leadership quality. I think I've always been a person of, you know, do what you say you're gonna do and try to instill trust and work ethic. I think for me, um it would be to be a little bit less sensitive to feedback, which I'm better at now.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Thanks to me, because I give you so much feedback.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yeah, and a little harsh sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

So, well, you're just blunt, and that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Honest.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Honest. Choose the right words. So I think I think if I could have learned that earlier on, it would have just been just easier. Like it it's not always constructive criticism, it's just about trying to grow and evolve. And I've never been scared of change, but I always wanted people to be happy, and I felt, I think, when I received constructive feedback that I was letting somebody down. So it wasn't about what they were saying, it was about the fact that I failed, felt like I had failed them, and so I didn't like that feeling. And so I think if I could have changed my perspective on that sooner, uh I I could have been it would have been a lot easier to to just evolve and to be better.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Cool. Are you a good delegator?

SPEAKER_01 37:46

No. Maybe that should have been my answer.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

I wondered if that might be your your answer, and I'm not saying No, but I'm also not a micromanager.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Like if I do if somebody's gonna do it, like I believe and trust, and if they say they're gonna do it, I believe and trust that they're gonna do it. I just don't ever like to burden anybody with anything. So then I just just do it. So it's not about not having trust or micromanaging. It's just about I if I feel like oh they're too busy, I'll just take it on and I'll just do it.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

You always want to help.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

I always want to help. I think that's my one of my Achilles heels is that I just want to help everybody around me have their best outcome, their best life. And sometimes I sacrifice my my health.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yeah. But don't you don't you think like, you know, being able to delegate is a good leadership skill. Like, isn't that the job of a leader? It's like the conductor of an orchestra, right? You're trying to bring all the pieces together. You're not playing the instruments.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Yeah, no, for sure. So maybe that that will add that one to the list as well, is is just being able to let go and and maybe cutting myself a little bit of slack and and just yeah, just letting other people like maybe giving myself a little bit more free time.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

What list is that? Is that the list I make up for you of things to improve that I keep adding to? So nice of me, eh?

SPEAKER_01 39:03

I haven't even seen that list.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Oh no, I've I haven't presented it to you yet. Okay, you're waiting. I'm not crazy, but uh question for Jennifer from Sue Wellings. As a skip, how do you balance being the boss of the team while also staying connected as a teammate and a friend?

SPEAKER_01 39:18

I just it's a great question. I I don't really view being a skip as the boss of the team. I I always felt like we are just all teammates, and I think you could be a leader and and just try to inspire, like we talked about. So I always felt really connected to my team, and I always felt like we are friends, and but you also have to separate like when you're on the curling ice or when you're in the boardroom, that's your primary focus. And so we are teammates in that moment, and then the I mean, we're all always gonna be friends, and I I feel like you know, you develop this bond that you'll be forever close, but on the curling ice, you're you're trying to inspire great shop making, a great performance, and then off the curling ice, that's when friendship kind of takes the prominent role. So it would really fluctuate. But I never viewed myself as a boss, and I don't think the skip is really a boss. I think they're the most of the time they're the leader, they're trying to inspire. So when you're trying to inspire, it's easy to feel like you're a part of a team.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yeah, okay. I think that's fair. I think that's a good answer. And but uh, I think we're winding up. So I think we can thank everybody for tuning in. Keep rocking the chaos, chasing adventures, loving the ride, and never stop dreaming. We'll see you next time on Rockstars.