Curling Without Borders

In this episode of Rock Stars, we dive into one of the biggest conversations in curling right now: Brad Gushue becoming the new High Performance Director for USA Curling. We unpack why the announcement caught so many people off guard, what it says about the future of coaching in Canada and the United States, and whether this is curling’s version of a “brain drain.” 

Here’s what we get into today:

• Why Brad Gushue’s move to USA Curling became such a hot topic across the curling world
• The qualities that make a successful high performance director and why leadership matters so much
• Why top Canadian coaches and players continue to find opportunities internationally
• Our thoughts on whether curling programs should prioritize domestic hires or search globally for the best talent
• What success realistically looks like for USA Curling leading into the 2034 Olympics
• The importance of team culture and building systems that last beyond one Olympic cycle

What’s your hot take on Brad Gushue’s new role? We want to hear from you! Leave us a comment or head over to our socials with your thoughts and any topic ideas you have for future episodes. We’ll see you next time!

Instagram: @Rockstarscurl // Jennifer: @‌jjonescurl // Brent: @‌brent.laing.99
Facebook: Jennifer Jones // Official Team Jennifer Jones
Twitter X: RockStarsCurl //Jennifer & @‌jjonescurl // Brent: @‌blaing99
Youtube: @‌RockStarsJonesLaing
LinkedIn: Brent Laing LinkedIn

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Rockstars, the podcast where high performance meets real life.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

I'm Brent Lang, joined by my wife, Jennifer Jones, and this is where we talk about rocks, rings, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

It's about chasing dreams and asking, why not me?

SPEAKER_01 0:14

And figuring out how to keep going when things get hard or hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Sometimes it's just us talking curling, business, family, and parenting.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Sometimes it's bigger conversations about success, pressure, and believing that anything is possible.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

We keep it honest, uplifting, and fun.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

We might even make you laugh.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Because this is about the wins, the losses, and real life in between. Rocks, rings, real life.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

This is Rockstars.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Welcome back to Rockstars. Rocks, Rings, and Real Life, the podcast where a couple of dream chasers open up about chasing big goals, living in the moment, navigating life's highs and lows, and figuring out what comes next together. I'm Olympic champion Jennifer Jones, and as always, I'm joined by my husband and Olympian Brent Lang. Brent, what are we going to be talking about on today's episode?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Wouldn't you like to know? Well, uh, I'm going to tell you. Today we're going to talk about curling coaching around the world and specifically about coaches from different countries coming to Canada and Canadian coaches and Canadian players leaving to go elsewhere. Some call it curling's version of the brain drain. You know how we lose our doctors and to the U.S. Well, of course, this the timing is uh not an accident. I said we lose our doctors to the U.S. We just uh I won't say the lost, but uh big announcement uh recently where Brad Gushu has uh become the high performance director of USA Curling. And it's been a hot topic now for a number of years, as we see a lot of uh Canadians go around the world, but a lot of internationals going around the world too, and we just don't seem to either either don't notice or or we don't care. And we've talked about it on previous podcasts, but I think with the timing of Brad going to the US, that uh I think we should revisit it in a lot more detail. What do you think of that?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

I like it.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

That's what we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

If you like it, then then I like it. So let's do it, all right?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Okay. Well, I love it. And as I have some thoughts on this, as so do other people by the sounds of it on social media these days. I I think there's been quite the reaction to the news. But before we jump in, a quick shout out to our listeners. If you are loving the show, hit that subscribe button and leave us a review. Make sure you follow us on our socials at Rockstars Curl on Insta and X and B Lang99 on X and at J Jones Curl on Insta. We it truly does mean the world to us and it really helps us out. So please do give us a follow.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

And I can't promise that I'll answer all of your questions and comments on YouTube, but I will get to them eventually. I got to a few more today, and uh it's always great to hear some some feedback. Some Rockstar rapid fire questions are cool. And uh, it's just it's I've heard from a few people in my life that I haven't heard from in a while, and they're saying they're loving the podcast. That's kind of cool. I think we're reaching a few people. Well, that's that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying we're there yet. You know, Joe Rogan doesn't know of us yet, but you never know, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:07

No, yeah, I would agree. And sorry we did miss one week.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I wasn't gonna mention it. You're not supposed to mention mistakes openly.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

And we're gonna do a podcast on it as to why we miss because it was basically just like comedy of errors. Sure. Yeah, sure. Sure, sure. It was life basically, but just kind of obstacles, and so our apologies, but yeah, here we are, we are back. Um and ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Okay. Let's start with the question. I'm gonna ask you a question, Jen.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Did the Gooshu announcement surprise you? And if it did, which I think it probably did a little bit, then uh what you know, what surprised you the most, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Well, that's a tough question as to did it surprise me? I know I'm a vault, and you would you would agree. I don't really ever breach.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Oh, so you already knew and you just didn't tell me? Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

You don't ever breach confidence like or I don't really ever breach any confidence or somebody that says, you know, Jem, please keep this to yourself. I keep it to myself.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

I'm What are you saying here? You knew?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Well, I had heard rumblings.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

What an asshole. You know, the Doesn't the marriage vows supersede your stupid legal vows? There's a and your moral bullshit, moral code.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Well, you just hear rumblings and you're you don't you're not sure whether they're true or not. They could be rumors. So there was definitely some some rumblings. I think I am a little bit surprised um in the sense that you know there's rumblings about what Brad was gonna do, and I don't think he's likely done yet. Like I think he's probably got some other things on the go. I he did announce he's writing a book and doing a bunch of other things. He's done, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Book tours underway. And I thought he was gonna end up at TSN. That that's truly what I thought. I thought Russ might be retiring with Vic. I haven't heard that announcement, but again, you you hear things and you make things up if you don't hear them, and that's what I made up.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Oh, okay. There well, there you go. Well, that's what kind of the I don't think it makes sense now, so I don't think that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Well, you can't do it now. You can't be commentating at the World Championships and being the high performance director of USA Curling. That doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

No, probably not. But uh so I was a little bit surprised. Only you know, Brad has been um Canadian, very He's been Canadian since he was born in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

No doubt about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

And I just actually I didn't really see him going into coaching. He is very entrepreneurial at heart. Um, I saw some, you know, other things that I thought he might do. So I was a little bit surprised that he went into coaching, but not surprised that he's staying in curling. He's got a great mind for the game. He um, you know, he he loves to try to see if he can make things better. I think he's done that with his teams over the years, like tried to figure out and push the limit. So maybe that part didn't surprise me as much, but I really didn't think I'd see him in in coaching.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Okay. So that's that was surprising then.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

And what about you?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

I was I was a little bit surprised. Uh, we were on a family vacation when Nicholas Adine announced his retirement, and that kind of cued the idea that maybe it would be Nicholas. I mean, I know he's spent a lot of time over in North America over the years. I don't know what his plans are. And he said in his announcement that, hey, you know, I'm gonna stick around the game, maybe commentating, maybe coaching, you know, maybe Rock League. And then I was like, that's was suspicious timing to me, but obviously I was wrong. Uh, but yeah, I was I was a little bit surprised. And it's similar to you. I mean, Brad's got a lot of different skills, a lot of different things going on. And, you know, I everybody says when you retire, I want to spend more time with my family, and I'm sure he's gonna take some heat that oh, I thought you wanted to just like you did. I thought you wanted to, he'll probably take less because he's a man and you're a woman. But you know, I thought you wanted to spend time with your family. Now you're taking a job in the United States. Like, you know, politics aside, that's a lot farther away than your normal curling. I mean, basically, I think it's most of the curlers are in Minnesota in the US at the moment, so yeah, I was I was surprised. I mean, when I heard the name, it made a lot of sense in a lot of ways, and we'll we'll kind of get into that. But I guess my follow-up question, if you were surprised, whether you were or you weren't, do you care that he's a decorated Canadian curler and that he's going to another country? Are you buying into that whole idea? And he's going down there, obviously, to help build a better program. He thinks he can help, and they think he can help them get to where they want to go, and essentially try to beat Canada. Does that bother you?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

No, it doesn't. Is that bad?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Not at all. Well I thought it might bother you. That's there's nothing wrong with that answer.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

I'm just I think I guess it it it bothers me in the sense that we as a country cannot keep Well, that's another question.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

We're jumping ahead here.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Okay. So that part bothers me, but and uh but I don't think why would we prevent somebody from going to earn a living?

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Well, we can't prevent them. We're supposed to be a free country still. We're not going political here today, but Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

So I think um I mean, obviously you'd rather see Canada do well, but I think at the end of the day, uh there's just not as enough opportunities for our top-level Canadians, whether you're a doctor, whether you're a curler, whether you're whoever you are, there's not enough opportunities here.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah, so it doesn't bother you. I don't think it bothers me either. I mean, I mean, I think you know, we don't have to talk about too much about you know why is why are people doing things because we have no idea. It's all speculation. But I part of it is helping grow the game. I've we've always said if if the United States can really get a great program going, continue to grow and continue to open clubs around the world, if the USA became the best curling country in the world, if you were just a fan of curling and didn't care that you know who that your team or your country won or lost, that would be a great thing. So when you send somebody with Brad's resume and Brad's credentials, and let's be honest, the bang that that's gonna make in terms of you know, call it a coup, taking away probably the most decorated Canadian curler of all time on the men's side and bringing them to the big bad USA. Again, politics aside, we're not gonna go down that road, you know, that's a big splash and maybe some notoriety to the sport. I know they've always talked about needing more money, every program says that.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

But yeah, I Doesn't everybody in life say that? Most people, not everybody, not everybody, 95% of the people really want more money.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

A lot of people, I mean, yeah. Well, sometimes you gotta earn it first. And I mean, they've done really well, the US, and and brought home some medals, and still I think they're a little bit underfunded from again the the rumor mill. But judging by Brad's quotes, and I don't know how many you read today, I just read the one article. I know um Devin did an article, he got the scoop, as Devin often does. I don't know how he gets in there, but he seems to know the curlers.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Well, he the fact that he covers curling, it helps, right? All the time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And he's always around. I I think I like it's transit. I think that's the secret.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

You gotta be out there and you gotta be in the right place at the right time.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah, and and he genuinely covers everything to do with curling, which curling never had before.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

So and he doesn't sleep, he sleeps in coffee. That's what he does, big bowls of coffee. But yeah, judging by his quotes, it sounds like Dean Gemmel, CEO of USA Curling, sounds like he reached out to Brad, kind of a bit of a recruitment, you know, right time, right place. Again, a timing thing. He's retiring, that'd be a great name, you know. Obviously the skill set and everything else. But what do you think, Brad? You know, what are the what are the skills that he has and attributes you think that he brings to this role that would, you know, make him a an attractive candidate?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Tough questions.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Well, if you're gonna let me write them, then you don't get any say.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Um, what does Brad bring? Well, obviously, experience for sure. He's he's got so much experience, he knows how to win. Um he's he's a student of the game, so he's spent a lot of time uh in the game in terms of the strategy, the tactical side of curling. He's always trying to figure different ways to do things, and so I think he he brings that kind of evolution and that and his work ethic. He's known as somebody that works very hard. Um, so I think he brings that to the game. You know, I I don't know what coaching experience Brad has. I'm not sure actually.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Well, he hasn't had time to do a lot of coaching.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

He's been probably his daughters.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he he does too well on the ice, he's playing every Saturday and Sunday, he's not getting home early to do any coaching, and he's retired for now, I don't know, six weeks, eight weeks. So I I don't think there's a ton of uh a ton of coaching experience, but you know, I think obviously he knows the game, the strategy, the even the confidence I think that that somebody like that brings. If you're an athlete or especially a younger athlete on the U.S. curling team, or if you're Team Casper, you know, Team Delaney Strauss, and you see, hey, Brad Gushu's coming in, you may not know him well, but you know who he is, you know how successful he's been, you know, like you said, you know the the legend of Brad is the the work ethic and the high expectations and and all of those types of things. So I I mean depends what you're looking for in that role, and I think we'll that'll be a question we'll ask in a in a few minutes here is what makes a great high performance director. But before that, you're gonna throw this one back at me.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Well, why didn't I just ask you?

SPEAKER_01 11:37

No, no, I want to ask you and then see if you'll answer it.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

No, I probably won't.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

No, I don't think you will. So yeah, like I said, you'll throw this one back to me, but are there any gaps in Brad's qualifications for a role like this?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Here's the toss.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah, you want me to answer that?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

I I don't r I I don't really know other than the fact that he he you know he doesn't have I I'm not sure what kind of experience he has building like he's worked with his teams obviously, but built building people and building a culture. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

He's hired and fired a lot of players. Is that a good skill? I mean it's experience making changes, tough changes.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Tough changes. That's that's something that's likely gonna have to happen in a program.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Maybe, you know, be him being in Newfoundland, not that Newfoundland, it's hard to compare Newfoundland with the United States, but there are some geographic challenges in the US that they face in terms of buildings and things like that, and you know, facilities, but also there's not a huge pool of top players at the moment. So, you know, Brad maybe he's coming in and he's gonna say, Hey, this is how I did it in Newfoundland. I had to ship people in from across the country. They moved in, it was centralized training until they got really established. Once they started being the kings of the hill, then you know Jeff Walker moved back to Alberta. Jeff got to go home, and yeah, things changed a a little bit. But uh yeah, I mean, if if there's a knock on Brad, it's he's been too busy winning everything in curling to be a coach. Um, but he's the high performance director, he's not a coach, yeah. He's just in charge of bringing a team together. And one thing he'll definitely know the business. Yeah, which he's a an entrepreneur, he's got lots of businesses, successful businesses over the years he's had, and but he gets to just bring together and say, Hey, look, this is what it takes to have a successful curling team. And if you put all that together, what did you just make? You made a you made a curling program, you made a high performance program, and whatever he thinks that is and his team, and obviously he'll have help, but uh I'd love to say that he's not qualified and that he's gonna fall on his face. I just don't see I don't see that happening.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

No, he's he's just uh he finds ways to succeed, so I would think he's gonna find a way. It's gonna be interesting to see what changes he makes. And I don't think he has the luxury of time, unfortunately, with the Olympics in the US in eight years. I know it sounds like a lot, it's eight years, but you really need to start building now and and soon and and try to get that confidence. So I mean, I'm sure the goal is to stand on top of the podium.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

That's everybody's goal, but yeah, I'm sure it is. But okay, is there any chance that Brad plays in 2034 for the United States of America? Does he make a an epic comeback and stand on on two feet and throw some stones in the Olympics?

SPEAKER_00 14:08

I never say never, but no, I don't think uh you know me. I never say never, but I would not bet on that. No.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Okay. Well, so long shot. The odds you put a dollar or two on it just in case.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Do we think in general, and this is the the overarching, the overall topic, do we think in general it's a bad thing that international coaches are moving around the world to find the best opportunities? And also, is it a bad thing that, you know, a national program like the United States is looking outside its borders to find the best possible candidates in ultimately, in Dean Dean Gemmel's view. I mean, he's the CEO and his team. I'm sure he had a, you know, I'm sure he had people helping him decide. But do you have a do we have a problem with that? We like you and I.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

No, I I think it actually makes a lot of sense for programs to look outside of the borders to make sure that they get the butt best qualified candidate. If you have people from outside the borders that you feel are the most qualified that are gonna come in and help you make your program stronger, whether it's a different perspective, different experience, then I th I believe that that's that's what should happen. Uh as a Canadian, I found it a little bit, I don't know, disheartening. Is that a because I really like David Murdoch. But when David Murdoch was hired, you know, you think we have all this talent in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

It was Yeah, didn't we have anybody that could fill the role?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Fill that role. Like you, you know, try to hire from within. And and maybe the United States feels the same way. It's just that we had such a we have such a depth of curling talent here. I think I was a little bit surprised, more surprised on that one than I would be on this Brad Gushu going to the United States. Um, we do have Canadian coaches all around the world coaching many teams, but again, there's there's just not that many opportunities in Canada. And typically, as far as I know, um, and I don't know, actually, I don't really know the rumors, I guess I know. Make it up. Yeah, the rumors that I know is that uh we in Canada don't pay as much as coaches are paid in other places.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Are you talking about our national team coaches like Curling Canada or are you talking about like our team coaches? Like that you would go out and find a coach. I don't know. I would tell you who Team Homan's coach is, but they probably changed it since the season ended, so I don't even know who it is anymore.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah, I I think it's probably both. I I I'm not really sure, but I I know that that's you know one of the reasons that Canadian coaches look out to where I don't know, actually, I believe I hear that, that's what I've been told, uh, is one they want the opportunity, and two that the there's just more kind of opportunity financially.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah, I mean, uh you want the best person for the job, whatever that job is. And curling, we're used to boundaries because of in Canada, provincials and you know, nationals and all those different things. But if you have the ability, if you had the ability to go out and get Brad Gucci to come play for USA ten years ago or five years ago or two years ago, you're gonna go get him if you can. So why does that why isn't that the same thing for coaches, for directors, and you know, high performance, your whole program? Why wouldn't you go out and try and find the best people and then figure out the rest in terms of geography and and everything else?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

And every other sport does that.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Every other business does that, every other, everything does that in the world. It's a global, you know, it's a it's a global world now in terms of its you know, ease of travel and remote work. And I don't have any insider knowledge, but I don't think Brad and his family are moving to the US anytime soon, but maybe they do want to go there eventually. I'm not putting words in his mouth. I have no idea. Um, but it can be done from anywhere, can't it?

SPEAKER_00 17:33

You would think Yeah, I would think so. There will be quite a bit of travel involved, though. I think, especially in the first couple of years, you're gonna have to have a a physical presence to really get the confidence and the buy-in of the players, of your coaches that you're gonna hire, of the systems that you want to create in order to create that winning culture. So it's gonna be require uh uh in my opinion, a lot of time, a lot of presence to really get that buy-in, create that confidence, create the culture that you want, like that winning culture. And uh so no, I don't I I think it can be done from anywhere, but during the first couple of years, I think you have to be physically present. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Okay, well, time will tell.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

I mean Well, not physically present all the time, but just like have a presence. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, well, I I think I think he's gonna do it from Newfoundland for the most part. He's gonna travel, he's gonna put a team together, and I don't know what uh what's there that he, you know, not that he's stuck with, that's the wrong word, but what's already in place and what he I'm I'm guessing. I know Brad a little bit, and he's gonna want to come in and have a look around and have the ability to make any changes he sees fit because he's putting his name out there. Let's be honest. He's worked pretty hard to build the Brad Goo shoe brand and name. I'm sure that he had some stipulations on what he's able to do and what he isn't, and I bet you the the the list of what he's not able to change is very, very short.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Do you think they're gonna all wear goo shoes?

SPEAKER_01 18:53

No. No, I don't. They were Nikes. It's the American United States of America.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Right, right. I forgot about that. So why why do you think Murdoch came to Canada? Why did Fry go to Italy? Why does Glenn Howard coach in Switzerland? Why do you think this is?

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Well, I can comment definitely on a couple of those. I don't know why Murdoch came to Canada. I think it was his wife is Canadian. Yeah, she is. That's part of it. It was it's a huge opportunity for him. I mean, it's still the marquee curling program, and maybe he saw things that he saw an opportunity to come in and not be the savior, but come in and make some changes and turn some things around. And I don't know, maybe he wanted to prove to himself that what happened in Scotland wasn't uh wasn't a fluke and that it is a system and that it can be done anywhere, especially in a place with the most, you know, grassroots talent in the world. Canada still by far leads in that category. So why did he come? Yeah, probably they wanted to move to Canada, that's probably part of it. They did move right away. It wasn't like that he was trying to do it remotely, had a great reputation. You know, what happened with Team Mowit and then Team White and the whole Scottish Curling Institute or whatever they call it over there, and so I don't know for sure if with Fry Fry loves an adventure. Italy's a really cool country, and they just happened to host the Olympics and they had an an amazing men's team that was breaking into the scene, and so it was right time, right place, and he just brought in that Fry swagger and you know try tried to get them over the top. It didn't work out in terms of the the Olympics, but they had a ton of success, won three slams, and so he went for adventure. He went to be the home country in the Olympics, which it only was, you know, was only a couple years away when he joined. I mean, Brad's looking at the same thing in the US, but that's eight years away. That's a that's a big commitment. Why did Glenn go to Switzerland?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Because I retired and then we didn't have a team.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah, he said finally when that happened. He didn't want to quit you.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Um yeah, and I think he just he loves to coach, he loves to be a part of the game. I I believe at that time Glenn was seeing that his time on the ice was coming to an end with injuries, and it just he wasn't gonna be able to play anything.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

The game finally, his body finally quit the game.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Yeah, and and I but I don't think Glenn himself wanted to quit curling, like and like leave the game entirely. So this is a really great opportunity to be on a great team, an Olympic contender team. Glenn wanted to get go to the Olympics, and it just made a ton of sense. And I know he really enjoys the team, and that actually is a really big thing for Glenn. He likes to enjoy the people that he's around and he really enjoys Team Schwaller and he feels that they're really good and that he can make a difference. So I think for Glenn it was about trying to make an impact and make a difference and still be involved in the game. But I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

No, I think that's fair. And and being that it's in Switzerland and spending some time in Switzerland, I know him and Judy went there last summer and spent some time. That's a big attraction. And when they reached out, I know they they said to Glenn, you know, we haven't been able to really get over the hump. We're always there, we're always close, and we think you have the skills to get us over that. And you know, you speak to a guy's ego, you're gonna get him a lot of the times. But and I don't know, you know, sometimes it's money. You know, I I don't know what Fry was getting paid. In Italy. I know it was, you know, it there was money, but it wasn't he wasn't getting rich. That's that's for sure. And I would say whatever Glenn's getting paid, and again, I have no idea. I promise you, he didn't negotiate hard. It's not enough. He does it because he loves it. Uh, wanted to go to the Olympics, and then our little buddy there, Savile, him and Czechia. I don't think Czechia is paying him, you know, six, seven figures. That would be my guess. He does it because he loves it, he thought he could make a difference. And again, spending some time in Europe is is attractive, and and he he did. He helped them get there and made a big difference in that team and got to experience the Olympics. So that's part of it. That none of that is Brad's motivation. So what's Brad's motivation? Let's guess.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

I don't know. Um, just he still wants to stay involved in the game, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

And he did say that. Yeah, he wants to stay involved in the game. He said that you know, retiring from playing was one thing, but he started to struggle almost immediately with the idea of not being involved in the game in a big way. I think that's part of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

I struggled with that too. I did.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah, no, it's and that's part of why you're still in involved in it. And I would say the US job probably pays a reasonable amount of money. I don't think it's peanuts. Brad doesn't do anything for free.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

No, and I it's also profile, I think. Like it's a big one too. It's a really big opportunity. It's gonna be pretty big profile. One with the Olympics going to the United States in eight years, but just because it's the United States, all the the popularity of curling during the Olympus in the United States and around the world, right now it's kind of at its peak. And so, you know, it's it's a it's pretty good profile right now uh as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Does it help with his upcoming book tour and book sales or does it hurt? I mean, again, we're not gonna talk about politics and which side we're on, we're not on a side, but does it help him? I mean, normally it would be a big deal, right? And it would be, you know, there's gonna be tons of press, his books coming out. Is are some people gonna be like, I'm not buying his book now because he's helping the the enemy?

SPEAKER_00 23:52

I don't know. I'm not very good at that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah, that that's not written down, that was just one of the ones that came to me. But yeah, it's it's interesting. And I think we've talked about this before. One of the reasons that people who want to coach in Canada who are highly sought after around the world, like Madal, pretty much my whole team went to Europe. My old the guys I played with, like Wayne.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Your whole team coached.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Your whole Rich did too, yeah. He coached a little bit too. Yeah, well, maybe we were were we that smart or we're just that desperate to stay in the game.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

No, and I don't want this to come across wrong, but I think it was because everybody wanted the magic that you guys had in terms of camaraderie.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Yeah, you can't teach that though. No, I know You gotta earn that.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

But you watched how you guys got along, brought out the best in each other. It was infectious. I think everybody really wants to feel the way that Team Howard was, like that, you know, have each other's backs at all times. Just I actually think Team Mao it's close to that.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Looks like it. They don't I don't know if they have as much fun as we had. I mean, it always looked like we were having a great time though, eh? And it wasn't an act, I can tell you, we had to do that.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yeah, it was just very genuine. So I I th you it was very you were easy to like in terms of just watching and just seeing what what uh so I'm not surprised that all of you are coaching, plus you're obviously talented and smart, and but you bring that kind of that unknown that that it factor that you know you can know a lot about something, but it's that special kind of special sauce, that secret sauce. You guys had the secret sauce.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Well, none of us were all that successful coaching yet.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

No, not yet.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

There's no world championships, there's one Olympic medal, Cliffy. Yeah, yeah. Well done, Glenn. You uh you beat us to the podium.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Uh Wayne just coached Sherry to a world medal.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

True. Yeah. Wayne was not the coach when Anna won the Olympics. No. No. He was the in-between. So Anna won, then Wayne coached, they lost, and then Anna won again when Wayne left. Is that how that lines up? Oh boy. I'm just kidding. No, they wanted Wayne loved it. And and I would say Wayne went over there again. Europe loved this Wayne would like the swagger of Team Hasselberg. Oh, yeah. He would love the confidence, the cockiness, uh, you know, the skill set, and he knew that that was a team that he could help, and they wanted help strategically and yeah, pace-to-play kind of stuff where Wayne really shines. And he went over there and he did really they still talk about it. And they the only reason that ended was because they the association wanted Wayne to move to Sweden, and Wayne's life here is too good. Yeah. That's the end of that discussion. But so anyway, I think we've beat that to death. Are there enough high-level coaches and leaders in curling in general? And if there aren't, then why are there not?

SPEAKER_00 26:21

You just need that one first, I think.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Well, uh, we've already answered it before. There's there's there's not enough. Yeah. So and the reason there's not enough, I think, is because there's not, there's maybe not a I don't know, I don't want to put anybody under the bus here, but maybe not a structured enough program to get from, you know, interested in curling or low-level curling coach, beginner curling coach, to intermediate to advanced to Olympic level. And I know in the US only because I've I've uh I've read about it, but I also ran into Phil Drobnik as he was retiring and chatting with him. He said he's staying on and he is going to be responsible for building the I forget what it was called in the press release today, but he's gonna build a program to coach the coaches. They don't have enough good coaches in the US, and he's going to be in charge of putting together a recruiting, training, and coach development program in the U.S., which is gonna be really cool to see. I hope that works. I think it will work. I really think it's needed.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

No, I I would agree. We need and in Canada, actually, there's a lot of hoops to go through to become a coach. So I think it does create some barriers, unfortunately, uh, for some people. And and we just need a you know, just a little bit more help to help the coaches be to continue to develop players, and um, it's just there's just not enough.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

No, I and I think everybody would agree with that. So I asked this earlier and I said we'd come back to it. What are the traits that we think or you think make up a great high performance director in curling? And you know, I would suggest we go back and listen to our podcast, What makes a good you know, a great leader, right? But what makes a a great high performance director?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

I think somebody that instills confidence, that you believe in, that you trust, you know, they do what they say they're gonna do, as we we often say. You need you definitely need to be able to do that. You can't have somebody who's afraid to make change. Uh you need to have somebody who's passionate, who's willing to make some changes for the greater good, who has a vision, who creates definitely some um structure. Not structure, but structure, yeah. Create systems. That's the word I was looking for. Who who can create systems, but also somebody who's gonna create a winning culture. Uh, and as much as this is to me, is that unknown, it's not tangible. I've seen it in my curling career, I've felt it. I think it's one of the biggest reasons we stood on top of that podium is because we had great culture, great team chemistry and culture during those Olympics. And it really does give a few points to the scoreboard. I saw that with Team Hasselborg at the these last Olympics. You could see a year and a half ago that they had something going on with them and they just get along so well, they bring out the best in each other. So a high performance leader needs to guide that, in my opinion. They need to really be centered around creating a winning culture, supportive culture to bring out the best in the players, but somebody who's not afraid to promote and encourage change and evolution so that they can be their very best. I don't know. Did I miss anything? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Well, I I think there's a whole bunch of things you need in a high performance program, and the role of the director is to make sure that you know you identify it all and then find the people that fit those pieces. Brad's not gonna come in and say, hey, I know everything and I'm an expert at everything. He says that to his team, like his curling teams over the years, but you know, in this role, I think he's smart enough to, and he is a smart guy. He's a smart enough to know that he's gonna come in and he's gonna say, This is what I see, this is what we need, and here are the gaps that we currently have after he learns about who's involved and like I said, who's staying, who's going. But there's going to be some changes, but he's gonna come in and build, you know, I think why they probably a big reason why they want him, outside of the brand and the splash and the marketing, the PR, is that it there's one thing you can say about him. He's got a set way to do things that is pretty probably pretty duplicatable and and and trainable and coachable, and he'll he'll have a vision. He doesn't, he's not willy-nilly's not the right word, but he doesn't half-ass things. And I I think you know, Dean said that in the uh in the press release as well, that you know, he's always admired how he he looks at every little detail. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

No willy-nillying.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

No willy-nillying. But I don't think there's a specific skill set because it it's just about bringing people together. Leadership is a that's a must-have. If you can't get people to believe in what you're doing and what you're saying, and what you're thinking, and what your vision is, nothing else really matters. It doesn't matter what your resume is if nobody believes in you and nobody listens to you.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

So do you need to have curling skills in this role?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

No, if you hired Brad Gusher or Jennifer Jones to take over the curling part portion of it, and you are going to be the you know, the visionary and the sports science and you know, all the the other things that go into it and just bring everybody together and be that leadership role, then no, you're gonna be the C like you could call this the CEO of high performance, and you don't have to be in charge of the high performance. You could hire somebody to take care of that.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

I think it helps though. I think it's an answer.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

It doesn't hurt.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

No, no, hey, I wouldn't especially in a in a sport organization. Most sport organizations don't have an unlimited budget, so you have limited resources, and so I I think it probably is a huge asset.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah, I agree. It would be it would be helpful if you'd had a lot of experience in bringing in sponsors, which Brad does, not in the US necessarily, but yeah, just you know, partners and sponsorships and selling the idea, even to I don't know, what's it called? We we have like own the podium in the US, like the US Olympic Committee, US OPC, I think it is. So being able to get in a boardroom where Brad would be comfortable speaking in on behalf of USA Curling and saying, hey, this is what we need and this is why. And this, you know, it I think that's a big part of it too, and that would be a skill that he would definitely bring bring to the table. So we're getting down to it, I think. But let's talk a little bit more specific in terms of uh where is the US program at right now and what does Brad need to do first, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00 32:09

I actually believe the U.S. program is in a pretty good state right now. Um, in terms of they just got a silver medal, Corey and Corey at the mixed doubles Olympics. Uh, Tabitha Peterson and her team finished fourth, had a great Olympics, they were trending upwards. Danny Kasper's very young. They they didn't make the playoffs at the Olympics, but young, looking good. They had great junior results. So there's lots of great tools in that toolbox that you just need to fine-tune it. So, what does Brad need to do first? He needs to form his team, he needs to have kind of the the athletes that he really wants to focus on to ensure that they can become world leading at each position. What do you think he has to do?

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Well, maybe I'm keeping secrets from you, but I'm hearing that they're losing a lot of their players.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 32:55

They are. That's the rumor. And that Corey and Corey are only playing mixed doubles, which is great to hear they're still playing mixed doubles, but they're not playing men's and ladies. That hurts the men's and ladies program. Schuster doesn't have a team at the moment. I mean, is he gonna be at the Olympics in eight years? Never say never, but I think he could be really instrumental in developing a young team, and I'll probably lean on him for something like that. Uh, I've heard that team Peterson, yeah, there may be none of them left.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Yeah, so maybe it's not in a great position.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

I just no, everything you said was accurate, but and where they were, you know, two months ago was impressive.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

And I love the juniors, the juniors that are coming up. I think that that's a great story and something to you still have eight years with them. You you look at how young a Stefania Constantini was when she won Olympic gold uh at the last Olympics, and how young she still is. Like you have time to develop these players and you you have some talent, but you as you said, Brent, you don't have depth.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

So I think that's his first move is what does our pipeline look like and how do we improve that? And what does the path look like from wherever it starts? It could be from learn to curl to Olympic podium in 2034. What is that what does that pathway look like and where are the gaps and how do we fill those in? And then finally, Jen, what is realistic? Two questions actually. What can be accomplished in eight years with a program like this leading to 2034 when the games are back in Utah? And then also, and and maybe we'll answer that one first, but the follow-up's going to be what does success look like in four years, and what does success look like in eight years for this program and for Brad?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Well, you're talking to a dreamer. So I think anything is possible in eight years. I believe that uh, you know, if you get the right people, the right kind of support team, you find those athletes, those and really focus on improving them, giving them experience, being there and encouraging them. I think anything is possible.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

That team uh triple gold medals in Utah? Well plus para four, five mixed doubles para five gold medals. That's very five gold medals for the US in 2034.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

I I just think there's a lot of opportunity for them to be on the podium. Um, you know, if if they can focus on the right things.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Um And is that is that success? Like what how do you measure success? Like what does it look like? I know obviously if they're gold medalists, if they qualify all their teams and they they're all on the podium, yeah, that's success.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

But uh for me, success has never been about winning. It just can't be. It's just too there's too many variables that are outside of your control. It's just about trying to improve. If if you can see your athletes improving on a day in and day out basis, if they're getting better, if they're getting becoming more consistent, I think that is success. But also if you see curling growing around the United States, that would be the ultimate success with the Olympics in Utah. If you can have a program that has depth, that has a future that you can see growing well into the future past these Olympics, that to me would be a success for curling, regardless of the podium results.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Yeah, it's super hard to tie success. I mean, teams do and athletes do, but as a program, you can't really tie success to medals because it's not always in your control. But what I would suggest is identifying right now. If Brad sat down and over the next six months he meets everybody and knows who everybody is and what's going on, he says, right now we have 16 world-class athletes. Pick a number, 30 world-class athletes. Success in four years is that we have double that. And success after that is that we double it one more time, leading into 2034. And here's the standards that you have to reach to be at that level, like what whatever that is. And that could be something as simple as drills, fitness, all those different things. And I think that's a more effective, more precise way to measure success than saying, hey, we won the gold medal because this team fell down, or hey, we lost because we played Bruce Maud in the semi, and the boys just went out and did what they do, and they played 100%, and we lost by one. We played 99, and or we played 100 and we lost. They started with the hammer and we lost. So it's hard to tie to that. But uh, is it possible that we'll see an Olympic team or you know, four, eight, twelve, sixteen, however many, how many athletes could be on the US Olympic curling teams in 2034 that we have never heard of right now, and we know quite a few names.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

I think it could be as much as 75%.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah, hey, I just wanted to know. I think you're possible.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

I I think you're gonna see some. I mean, I guess I I like I said I've talked about the junior success right now. So I guess we've heard of them, but I the Team E Bear.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Benny's nephew, I think. No, it's no relation. But yeah, they're that's an interesting story. That team was put together in those in the same town by a coach who's a teacher and wants wants to wanted to put together a curling team and build it, a junior team. I'm sure that's one of Brad's first conversations is hey, how did how did you do this? What did it look like? And how do we duplicate it all across the country? Because they have how many people in the US? Like 400 million?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Yeah, there's there's lots of opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

And how how much money's in the US?

SPEAKER_00 37:44

A lot.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

A lot, and do they love sports and winning?

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Is there any reason why the US shouldn't be, other than Canadian bias, shouldn't be the leading curling country in the world?

SPEAKER_00 37:55

No, there really isn't any.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Unless China decided and changed a few of their cultural things. Anyway, so yeah, sorry, I'm getting off track here, but I think that's it. I think we've come to an end. I think we've uh we've covered it pretty well. I don't know if we're if we're saying it was a good choice or a bad choice. I think we both said it was a pretty good choice to understand the reasoning, and we're both, I think, interested fans to see how it all comes together.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yeah, and just to see, I I I think if if you can kind of move those yardsticks and and kind of create some success.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Will Brad have to call in somebody for team chemistry? Because he was pretty hard on his guys at times. I used to joke to Mark Nichols and to Brad, it's like, I think sometimes he calls the hardest shot when he's pissed off at you guys, just so that he can get something else to say back to the practice board. And they grinned. So I don't know if that's them admitting it or not. But Brad, and that's I think why he got the job is that he holds the standard as higher, higher than anybody in the history of the game, and that's where his success comes from. So I say that tongue in cheek, but he's never been a fluff guy.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

No, and that, and that would be, but I mean, you're not you're not gonna be everything, right? You're you or most people aren't everything.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

He's gonna have to hire some fluffers. Is that what you're saying? Oh boy, no. Jesus, family show.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Okay, well, let's uh I think that's uh that's probably a wrap then. But thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in. Please keep rocking the chaos, chasing adventures, loving the ride, and never stop dreaming. We'll see you next time on Rockstars.